My 3650 swap

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Doxnoogle

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96 Tbird Lx, PI 4.6
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Little daunting to be the first thread. Just got the memo that the gang moved over here. My project clearly is taking longer to come to fruition than expected but I'm looking to move ahead. I already perused the rather good tech article on the manual swap but it only mentions the old speedcal or speed dial. Has anyone found a suitable replacement or have experience with the Dakota Digital SGI-100BT?

I read somewhere that the ideal ratio is .25 and that the ecu is looking for 8000 pulses per mile. Also, if anyone could point out which master / slave to AN adapters i need to pickup, that would be fantastic. Have dug through a good 10-12 swap threads and the couple that mention the fittings don't give a part number, name, nor size, only that i need a straight one for the slave and a 90 for the master.

I'm probably going to just buy a trans from a local yard and I'm not sure yet if it comes with the shifter or not. Do the aftermarket ones require anything from the factory shifter? Heard a lot of good things about the MGW from XR7 on TCCoA.

Also, trying to remember, I don't need anything special for flywheel? Was planning to grab a 05-10 GT LuK clutch kit. Last thing that I was debating, everyone seems to be going with an aluminum driveshaft, I'm genuinely wondering if its worth the $200-300 premium. Not building a race car, just a fun DD. Oh and length, a length would be handy, I've read 60.5 and 64. Lastly, factory driveshaft is 1310 u-joints aren't they?
 
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First of all, welcome! :biggrin:

Can't help much with the swap tech, but a driveshaft upgrade is definitely worth it. The factory unit is a 2 piece and tends to cause problems down the road. Do you need a custom driveshaft with the swap? The gurus will give more insight I'm sure!

Joe
 
Rodeo Joe said:
First of all, welcome! :biggrin:

Can't help much with the swap tech, but a driveshaft upgrade is definitely worth it. The factory unit is a 2 piece and tends to cause problems down the road. Do you need a custom driveshaft with the swap? The gurus will give more insight I'm sure!

Joe
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Yea, the 05-10 3650 has a fixed rear yoke, so you need the driveshaft to be telescoping. Could technically use a mark 1 pc and have it shorted with the slip yoke added, but i havent been able to find one of those yet either. This leads me to ask kind of a dumb question, are the factory shafts 2 piece with a carrier or are the 2 piece like its pressed together with some sort of isolator?
 
You definitely need the aluminum driveshaft due to the length. With the fixed flange, it actually winds up longer than the stock shaft, so having it made out of aluminum will help avoid driveshaft critical speed during highway driving. The only other option, which I may try at some point, but you could be the guinea pig for it, would be to adapt the 05-10 Mustang GT 2-piece driveshaft, and use the small cross-brace mounts as the center support bearing mount, but I’m not even sure if that would work from a driveline angle perspective, and it would still involve custom driveshafts due to the lengths being different.

The MGW shifter is awesome! Mine came with the trans that I got for my swap, so I can’t say if you would need anything from the stock shifter. You will need to beat on the trans tunnel a bit to get it to clear, but it is my favorite shifter I’ve ever had in any car, and I highly recommend it.

For the clutch line and fittings, here is the 90 degree fitting
www.ebay.com

84-97 CHEVY T5, T56 HYDRAULIC CLUTCH LINE FITTING 90° AN-4; 5 & 6-SPEED SWAP | eBay

84-97 Camaro/Firebird T5 & T56 AN-4 90. For use when transplanting the T5 or T56 into a different vehicle than was original. Musclecar transmission swap. Can be used in 84-97 Camaro/Firebird with (1) straight fitting, (1) 90 degree fitting, and 30" AN-4 line.
www.ebay.com
And here is a kit that has the line and 2 straight fittings
www.ebay.com

T56 T5 Swap Hydraulic Clutch Hose Line Kit 36" AN4 Crimp Hose Ends LS LT1 | eBay

Hose can be assembled with ordinary wrenches and sockets, although a vice is suggested to hold the fittings during assembly. 36" AN4 Crimped female Hose Ends LS LT1. T56 T5 Swap Hydraulic Clutch Hose Line Kit.
www.ebay.com
 
According to Dennys you can go up to 65" with a 3.5" tube steel shaft, i would imagine that goes up with a slip yoke but maybe not. My plan is to call dennys or the DSS and see what they recommend once i figure out the length. Really not interested in 2pc. Im glad to hear the MGW is worth the cost.

Our master / slave uses the chevy style fittings? Im pretty sure thats what was in the summit link on my other thread you sent me, just assumed you were pointing out the type of fitting, not that particular one as they didnt list ford in the applications.
 
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Ive come across them before and since you posted that, will be sure to look into them as soon as i figure out how long it needs to be. Found a MGW shifter local NIB for $250, guess im going to jump on it.
 
Nobody has anything on the signal interface for the speedo? Hate to buy that one and find out it wont work, but God hates a coward.
 
The Dakota digital will work for the Speedo. I’m not 100% sure if it will work for the ECM, but it’s worth a try. I have it for my F150, which is running a 96 Explorer ECM, and I had to disconnect the speedo signal from the ECM because it would cause it to go into some kind of limp mode, but I don’t know if that is because of the signal not being correct or some other issue, but the speedo part works flawlessly.
 
Hmm, thats unsettling, i assumed they both went off of the same source...
 
They do. It may just be something weird about that truck because everything I read online said it should work, but that was my experience with it.
 
@MadMikeyL does the Dakota digital work and install fundamentally the same way as the speedcal? In that it’s essentially added in-line to the VSS circuit and simply does it’s thing altering the input the in from the output?

If so as I’d presume with the speedometer being accurately altered I don’t see any reason it would cause an issue in the PCM, what kind of behavior was it exhibiting? Is it a auto manual trans?
 
Yes, it has an input and an output, and power and ground. The F150 is a 2001, which was originally a 4.2 V6 with a 5-speed manual. It now has a 351W stroked to 393”, running on a 96 Explorer 5.0 computer, with the same 5-speed. The sensor in the trans is the factory one, which is the same magnetic pickup style as the TR3650, and the 96 Explorer is looking for the older style like the tbird has. With the speedo signal wire connected to the ECM, as soon as I get to 15-20mph, the thing pegs lean, pops and sputters and barely runs, and it throws some code for speed sensor signal implausible or something like that. When I cut the speed sensor signal wire to the ECM, it runs perfect. That wire comes from the sensor, then goes to both the ECM and the speedo, so now it is connected only to the speedo, and the speedo works perfectly. I had Dave Dalke tune the truck, and he seemed to think that the Dakota digital unit can’t convert the square wave to the sine wave or something like that, but Dakota digital claims that it does, so I don’t know. The truck runs and drives and works, and since it is a manual, there is no reason that the ECM needs to see the speedo signal, so I’m not too worried about it, but just figured I would mention it since you mentioned using the same unit that I have. I would still try it because it seems to be the only option now, but if you run into that issue, you just have to cut the speed sensor signal wire going to the ECM. If it works fine for you, then my truck has some other issue, which is entirely possible.
 
MadMikeyL said:
Yes, it has an input and an output, and power and ground. The F150 is a 2001, which was originally a 4.2 V6 with a 5-speed manual. It now has a 351W stroked to 393”, running on a 96 Explorer 5.0 computer, with the same 5-speed. The sensor in the trans is the factory one, which is the same magnetic pickup style as the TR3650, and the 96 Explorer is looking for the older style like the tbird has. With the speedo signal wire connected to the ECM, as soon as I get to 15-20mph, the thing pegs lean, pops and sputters and barely runs, and it throws some code for speed sensor signal implausible or something like that. When I cut the speed sensor signal wire to the ECM, it runs perfect. That wire comes from the sensor, then goes to both the ECM and the speedo, so now it is connected only to the speedo, and the speedo works perfectly. I had Dave Dalke tune the truck, and he seemed to think that the Dakota digital unit can’t convert the square wave to the sine wave or something like that, but Dakota digital claims that it does, so I don’t know. The truck runs and drives and works, and since it is a manual, there is no reason that the ECM needs to see the speedo signal, so I’m not too worried about it, but just figured I would mention it since you mentioned using the same unit that I have. I would still try it because it seems to be the only option now, but if you run into that issue, you just have to cut the speed sensor signal wire going to the ECM. If it works fine for you, then my truck has some other issue, which is entirely possible.
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Is the PCM flashed? It could be that code is it’s wanting to see the signal from the OSS the automatic uses in tandem with the VSS, which would jive with a code that describes implausible.

I also had some issues even with the first manual trans flash tune I made with popping and sputtering symptoms that turned out to be a a table called max spark at low load not advancing or retarding timing at all, which despite the name load made no difference and the car only went into it when moving, not at idle so VSS definitely effects it and presumably a lack of MLPS signal.

Honestly I’ve been having all sorts of frustrations with manual trans swap tuning with an auto PCM, like I cannot get Coasting fuel shutoff to work at all to this day, even after getting my tuning parameters expanded by SCT in the fall. I’m probably going to be swapping to a manual 96-97 Mustang PCM and try my tune on that to see if it solves it.
 
Yes, it is tuned with SCT, I have the pro racer package for it, and I drove the truck out to Ohio and had Dave Dalke do the final dyno tune on it. I had tried sending both OSS and VSS signals to the ECM, as well as each one separately. The problem only happens with the VSS signal. I can have OSS hooked up or not, doesn’t make a difference, but as soon as the ECM gets a VSS signal, it goes nuts!
 
XR7-4.6 said:
Honestly I’ve been having all sorts of frustrations with manual trans swap tuning with an auto PCM, like I cannot get Coasting fuel shutoff to work at all to this day, even after getting my tuning parameters expanded by SCT in the fall. I’m probably going to be swapping to a manual 96-97 Mustang PCM and try my tune on that to see if it solves it.
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Is this something i should do as well? Was my understanding i could just have my chip flashed to take care of ditching the auto.
 
Doxnoogle said:
Is this something i should do as well? Was my understanding i could just have my chip flashed to take care of ditching the auto.
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On a 96-97 yes, not not so easily on a 94-95 which you’d need to change and adapt harnesses on as I did.

If you don’t care about coasting fuel shutoff a tune on the stock PCM will work fine with it, mines been that way for years now and there’s no drivability issues. I’d just like CFSO for the more aggressive braking and the theoretical mileage bump on coastdowns
 
@MadMikeyL ,The big difference in the EEC vs the speedo, is that the speedo is turning vss into a motor drive voltage, and the eec is reading it every time thru the loop. like 10,000 times a second,to see if there's a pulse. I'd bet the signal is noisy, and its timing/multiple pulses dinks with the eec. See if adding a stereo noise filter to the unit fixes it, and recheck the grounds, both on the unit and the transmission itself. You don't need a 10a filter, that vss unit should draw maybe 2a max, I would think. A capacitor across the power leads, connected to another at the power source, with an inductor, that can deal. Amazon has them in a shrink tube for 10 bux, last time I needed one. Buy one that will deal with where you mount it. :)
 
XR7-4.6 said:
On a 96-97 yes, not not so easily on a 94-95 which you’d need to change and adapt harnesses on as I did.

If you don’t care about coasting fuel shutoff a tune on the stock PCM will work fine with it, mines been that way for years now and there’s no drivability issues. I’d just like CFSO for the more aggressive braking and the theoretical mileage bump on coastdowns
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Gotcha, currently with the auto if you let off the gas after a sec or two its like the IACV closes and it really whoas down, dont want to lose that.
 
So i have some parts rounded up, pulling the trigger pdq. Just want to make sure theres no gotchas like i ran into with the bosch o2 sensors. Going with a stock luk clutch kit, surprisingly the clutch kit ( pressure plate, disc, throwout / slave) and seperate flywheel are cheaper than the same kit that includes the flywheel. I assume a pilot bearing from a 05-10 will work in my engine? Its an 03 4.6. I think i have the fittings i need for the clutch line figured. Just going to grab a new master from rockauto as the one that came with my pedals is pretty trashed, not sure if any are better than others? I know the power torque or whatever from oriellys for my obs is steel instead of plastic which was a nice surprise. ** Turns out, curiosity got the better of me and i just looked it up, the clutch master from oriellys is in fact an aluminum body instead of plastic. At $15 more than the plastic pieces from rockauto, you can bet thats the one im picking up. According to MGW i need the black linkage bar from a stock shifter to make mine work, so need to track one of those down. Short of the transmission itself and the driveshaft, i think thats everything i need. Oh, the signal adapter from dakota digital that i mentioned above. Going to send them an email and make sure they dont have something newer / better / different.
 
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Yes, the pilot bearing is the same for all year 4.6s, so no issues there. I wasn’t aware anyone made an aluminum clutch master cylinder for the SC, that’s good to know! Although I can’t say I have ever seen the stock one fail.
 
Also, i have a really dumb but maybe genius question. The signal for the speed sensor in the 3650 surely runs off of a tone ring, i wonder if it could be as simple as knocking every other tooth off to bring the number of pulses down. Im sure this can lead to its own issues and is no doubt going to be a pita to do, but just thought about it as an option. Dakota digital got back to me and ever so helpfully told me that i should just lower the output signal to match my application....
 
Well you would have to take off 3 of every 4 teeth on the tone wheel, and if the number of teeth is not divisible by 4, then you’ll have a problem, but regardless, you will still need something to fine tune the adjustment, since that will get you in the ballpark, but not exact. Also the tone wheel is a piece of steel on the output shaft, so you won’t be able to to just knock the teeth off, you would have to take the transmission all apart to be able to chock the tone wheel up in a mill to machine off the teeth. So in short, no, you can’t do that.
 
MadMikeyL said:
Well you would have to take off 3 of every 4 teeth on the tone wheel, and if the number of teeth is not divisible by 4, then you’ll have a problem, but regardless, you will still need something to fine tune the adjustment, since that will get you in the ballpark, but not exact. Also the tone wheel is a piece of steel on the output shaft, so you won’t be able to to just knock the teeth off, you would have to take the transmission all apart to be able to chock the tone wheel up in a mill to machine off the teeth. So in short, no, you can’t do that.
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The trigger wheel isn’t that hard to get too, all you’d have to remove is the extension housing and one of its snap rings holding it onto the mainshaft but otherwise you’re right. IF you cut teeth and make the signal mimick a VSS you’re locked into a(unknown) calibration. That’s why the factory VSS uses the colored gears to drive a shaft to turn in the sensor with a self contained tone ring/pickup in the first place
 
Well in this particular situation, i wouldnt go so far as knocking half let alone 3/4 of the teeth off. The goal would just be to lower the signal enough to make running 3.73 or 4.10 doable with the calibration box thing.
 
First batch of parts arrived. Have everything except for the trans, shifter link bar, clutch line, and driveshaft. This slave cylinder appears to have a m12x1.0 bubble flare. Sitting in my cart on summit is a 12mm flare to -4an and a t56 style "clutch" to -4an as well as a 3' premade braided "brake line" with one straight end and one 90* end, obviously -4an ends. Having never messed with these internal slaves, im assuming it bolts to the front cover of the trans and the bit of hard line is just to get it out of the bellhousing for assembly / disassembly? Might go looking for a trans monday or tuesday. The "power torque" aluminum master cylinder is a nice piece, appears very well made. Only dissapointment is the hose barb / flange for the resivior that bolts to the case is plasteek.
 
The M12 thread is probably for the bleeder. The feed line uses the fitting that is held in with a roll pin.
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That's the only fitting on it. Its the TOB that came in the LuK kit.
 

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