SHOCK tower bar interest

[Zep5.0]

So you expect that to flex between the ARM mounts. Not happening. And if you had something between them you'd have to mount them with a 20" long bolt.

 

[Chingon1]

You could weld another tube to tie them together. It looks weak everywhere, also the caster adjustment sucks ass

 

[AdamG]

Have you actually seem one in person? I live an hour away from aje so I was able to go directly there to pick one up with my buddy, then went back and got one for myself. I got to talk to Tim and Anthony a good amount. A lot of thought and effort went into the redesign, granted there isn't much caster adjustment, but it has more camber adjustment and best of all, no damn strut rods and bushings. They are very well supported and gusseted. You can always add more supports to tie everything together a little more, but that would definitely result in something better than the factory k member could ever do, plus you have so much more clearance on everything, it was a no brainer for me and several of my buddies...

 

[Chingon1]

You can guess my opinion lol

What’s something in the Kmember department that you would improve?? I remember you made a custom trans crossmember, did that make a difference?

Simplify, then add lightness.

That would be nice from what I gather the aje is about 30-40lbs lighter. Learning to make GOOD welds, I’d try my hand at making one.

@AdamG “You can always add more supports to tie everything together a little more”

I’m not totally hating on it, for sure better than stock specially with the space to work with. It would have been cool if a member talked to them and informed them of the brace to the frame rails. Biggest gripe with it.

 

[dDUBb]

It would have been cool if a member talked to them and informed them of the brace to the frame rails.

The question is .. does that LECB on its own actually make any difference tying the beefiest part of the unibody frame to the otherwise solid K-member ?

 

[Chingon1]

The question is .. does that LECB on its own actually make any difference tying the beefiest part of the unibody frame to the otherwise solid K-member ?

Front Subframe Lower Engine Cradle Brace Kit - A MUST for every car!

<p>The lower engine cradle is tied together with the cars body with these braces for a huge payoff in front suspension rigidity. Dramatic improvents in the handling feel are achieved with the beefed up front end. Also, it is well known that high powered cars are developing cracks in the...

www.supercoupeperformance.com

Just so I’m clear I mean this brace. I personally have it and it does work good. Could be better since the tiny tab that ties it to the frame I think don’t have enough surface area. Got em for dirt cheap on eBay. I rather like how Rods style are, the totally envelope the frame with a bolt through it.




Also here’s a clear view of what I mean, the gab between control arm points. You can argue the an arm themselves give strength. Maybe.

 

[Zep5.0]

Front Subframe Lower Engine Cradle Brace Kit - A MUST for every car!

<p>The lower engine cradle is tied together with the cars body with these braces for a huge payoff in front suspension rigidity. Dramatic improvents in the handling feel are achieved with the beefed up front end. Also, it is well known that high powered cars are developing cracks in the...

www.supercoupeperformance.com

Just so I’m clear I mean this brace. I personally have it and it does work good. Could be better since the tiny tab that ties it to the frame I think don’t have enough surface area. Got em for dirt cheap on eBay. I rather like how Rods style are, the totally envelope the frame with a bolt through it.



View attachment 2594
Also here’s a clear view of what I mean, the gab between control arm points. You can argue the an arm themselves give strength. Maybe.

The control arms bolt in right under the bar that goes front to back on both sides. They also connect to the bars that go from side to side.

If you're taking about the 4 corners that are furthest out, those are the areas that bolt to the frame rails.

As for the LECB, there is not a good way to integrate that into the K member. You could sure build one and weld it to the K if you wanted.

 

[XR7-4.6]

What’s something in the Kmember department that you would improve?? I remember you made a custom trans crossmember, did that make a difference

I wouldn’t

I made that trans crossmember purely to gain exhaust clearance.

 

[Chingon1]

Raaaalllyyyy, it looks a lot stouter than the OG and you got rid of the outer bushings

 

[dDUBb]

Fuck all the BS .. just seam weld your entire unibody. Pick up a welder and a couple spools of wire; by fhe time you finish, you should have the most solid Tbird ever built and a good amount of welding practice.

 

[XR7-4.6]

Raaaalllyyyy, it looks a lot stouter than the OG and you got rid of the outer bushings

It’s stouter, sure, despite being t6061 aluminum it weighs more than the OEM stamped steel one, but it’s not in a position to do anything to the unibody, what could it do, really? The welded frame rails, trans tunnel and seat risers form the rigid floor structure, what good will a M shaped “brace” fastened with one bolt on each end two feet apart do?

I don’t think I ever heard of anyone using a trans crossmember to stiffen body structure, that wasn’t even a sales pitch in the aftermarket crossmember I copied mine after. If it was by that logic the seat tracks can be considered braces, but whatever good they do to the floorpan is redundant and far exceeded in stiffness by the rockers and tunnel stamping running parallel to them.

 

[dDUBb]

In the event of a side impact collision, the trans tunnel is the first place the body folds ( trans crossmember folds also ).

On the other hand, there is a transmission tunnel brace .. I'm going off on another script here ..




The above image is the transmission tunnel brace on the Chevy SS .. in this case, the beefy brace makes a difference. First of all its actually a structural piece in stamped stock form. There may be a noticeable creak sound from the body flexing on uneven surfaces ( mine does this at the local liquor store driveway ). In some instances, the creak is hard .. some times the body just lifts enough to spin one wheel. There is a GM TSB about not removing this brace - if the body flexes or is improperly jacked without the brace, it may result in the body tweaking to the point where body panels do not line up. It has been extensively reported that the aftermarket tunnel brace is the cure for the window creak.

The difference in the SS is that the brace bolts directly to the unibody boxed understructure; whereas on the Tbird, this brace is a flimsy piece of metal with insignificant mounting structure to the Floorpan section. Just a little food for thought @Chingon1.

 

[Chingon1]

@dDUBb haha I’d stitch the bird up if my skills were good from the jump. Thin metal is hard to weld I have pictures of somebody on TCCOA where they seam welded all of it. I’m REALLY trying to get this chassis stiffer and have read on other forums 240Z’s older GTR that also have flimsy unobodys and they always report good things. Also heard that the lancer VS lancer EVO unibody’s, the evo version has a lot more spot welds through the body specially the door holes or openings.

Also this - https://help.flyinmiata.com/lots-of-pain-a-little-gain-BkYvAnA3s


Here’s a brace for Volvo not sure but a 90/2000’s wagon. The brace right in front of our gas tanks, doesn’t do much?? I was thinking it was there to catch the driveshaft if it breaks or something. That spot is also where the JL subframe brace ties too and people say good things about it.




@XR7-4.6 you see, talking to you guys shows me how little I know I have questions none the less. So are those bolt holes where the member bolts actually reinforced?
You might be able to see, this is from a s550. The cross member is a solid chunk of aluminum that has 2 bolts per side. Obviously this is way different than our cars but but I’d say the reason for a stiffer crossmember is to give additional structure to the trans tunnel connecting both side together more rigidly.

 

[Chingon1]

Couple weeks ago I pulled out the trusty X brace and JB welded the end plates to the outer edges of the trunk opening. Quick run down it’s 3”x.5” aluminum, upper is 3/16 plate, lower portions where it bolts to are stock plates pulled off a 98 mark 8. They come with an X from the factory. Giving that ford engineers aren’t fools. Why would they do that?? Not trying to be a dick but I’m pretty sure you’ll say this brace is doing diddly squat haha but I promise, it really stiffens this bitch up. Could be better with 1” tube but the rear seat won’t allow it.





Side note, I know you see that. The place where the v bolts too was so beat up, it didn’t take much energy to pull off. I’m looking into getting it welding back on, or epoxied on and connecting the X to it.

 

[dDUBb]

Badbird never finished that project from what I recall. Also note the interior panel complete cut out. And I believe that was flux core wire welded.

I'd venture to say you'd be better off with an ARC weld, set at the proper heat and rod size / flux selection, you would basically drag the stick along the seam - it would be just as effective and much faster than attempting to stitch weld or take on the monumental task of fully welding with a wire feed. Thin sheet metal is easy, just turn down the heat and use smaller .025 wire size.

 

[XR7-4.6]

Couple weeks ago I pulled out the trusty X brace and JB welded the end plates to the outer edges of the trunk opening. Quick run down it’s 3”x.5” aluminum, upper is 3/16 plate, lower portions where it bolts to are stock plates pulled off a 98 mark 8. They come with an X from the factory. Giving that ford engineers aren’t fools. Why would they do that?? Not trying to be a dick but I’m pretty sure you’ll say this brace is doing diddly squat haha but I promise, it really stiffens this bitch up. Could be better with 1” tube but the rear seat won’t allow it.


View attachment 2654View attachment 2655View attachment 2656


Side note, I know you see that. The place where the v bolts too was so beat up, it didn’t take much energy to pull off. I’m looking into getting it welding back on, or epoxied on and connecting the X to it.View attachment 2657

Mark VIIIs never had a fold down seat so they were able to WELD in a X brace rather than have a removable V brace depending on the option package. I never said THAT does nothing, however I think you long surpassed the point of diminishing returns using 10lb substitution for what the welded in factory sheetmetal X brace will adequately do.

@XR7-4.6 you see, talking to you guys shows me how little I know I have questions none the less. So are those bolt holes where the member bolts actually reinforced?
You might be able to see, this is from a s550. The cross member is a solid chunk of aluminum that has 2 bolts per side. Obviously this is way different than our cars but but I’d say the reason for a stiffer crossmember is to give additional structure to the trans tunnel connecting both side together more rigidly. View attachment 2653

No, it's to support the transmission. Ford used to use crossmembers in the fox and jellybean SN95 era similar to ours that spanned to the frame rails, but in the New edge era they switched to a narrow crossmember with floorpan standoffs in order to gain exceptional exhaust clearance for less tortured exhaust routing. Same reason for mine.





This is just like the S550 setup other than being stamped steel rather than aluminum. Quite frankly if the crossmember was important for unibody stiffness the old frame rail mounts was better structure to tie it to than the floorpan, the fact that it isn’t anymore is enough proof that it isn’t there for any other purpose but to support the rest of the transmission.



As for the seam welding pic you posted, I remember someone pointing out after he did it that he overdid it, and that the most effective approach was 1" weld/ 1" gap, eg stitch welding. I wouldn't be surprised if his chassis was a little "off" after he continuously welded every seam like that.

 

[Chingon1]

Still no updates yet unfortunately homies up until now I never knew fab workers are always swamped with work haha

i do have more questions, calling the MN12 Gods




from the looks of this, it seems the kmember ties its to what seems to be the torque boxes? What Is the function of a torque box? this is similar to us having the LECB? obviously structural rigidity has come a long way of the years, would this be a reason manufacturers started incorporating The LECB to cars from the factory? In this context, this picture is of a S197 correct? I’ve read this car is allloot stiffer than the previous gens.

2 more examples I can think of on this platform would be the added structure to the B pillars connecting to the floor/seat. next would the the rear wheel wheels, all we have is the package tray and the lil square piece thats welded to the front of the wheel well.
highlighted are a few kew areas.




also why does the FN10 have this brace tieing the frame rails and trunk together?


random thoughts up for discussion, main goal is to increase the fun factor of these cars. A tighter chassis leads to a quieter car and much more stable platform.




Thanks!

 

[Chingon1]

side note, would there be any merit in adding the sunroof structure to a non sunroof car to aid in rigidity?? Dumb idea but just curious. Would these attempts be in vain?

 

[XR7-4.6]

Still no updates yet unfortunately homies up until now I never knew fab workers are always swamped with work haha

i do have more questions, calling the MN12 Gods

View attachment 3285


from the looks of this, it seems the kmember ties its to what seems to be the torque boxes? What Is the function of a torque box? this is similar to us having the LECB? obviously structural rigidity has come a long way of the years, would this be a reason manufacturers started incorporating The LECB to cars from the factory? In this context, this picture is of a S197 correct? I’ve read this car is allloot stiffer than the previous gens.

2 more examples I can think of on this platform would be the added structure to the B pillars connecting to the floor/seat. next would the the rear wheel wheels, all we have is the package tray and the lil square piece thats welded to the front of the wheel well.
highlighted are a few kew areas.

View attachment 3287View attachment 3288


also why does the FN10 have this brace tieing the frame rails and trunk together?
View attachment 3290

random thoughts up for discussion, main goal is to increase the fun factor of these cars. A tighter chassis leads to a quieter car and much more stable platform.




Thanks!

1. I KNEW you were going to ask about those lol

Those are the factory SN95 convertible braces, coupes didn't come with them it's all an effort to mitigate cowl shake convertibles are prone to. Functionally LECBs indeed function similarly

2a. the B pillar structure is for side impact protection, SN95s actually have them too. There might be a structural improvement but that's not their primary purpose. In order to retrofit them the sail panels and rear seat won't fit so you may as well just build a roll bar for a better effect IMO (I think you may have asked about those once before as I'm typing this)

2b. looks like simple package tray/trunk hinge reinforcement to me. Our cars already have it

2c. What's circled and I assume you're referring to on the front is the LCA pivot. S197 Mustangs use L shaped control arms with the pivot at the back. It's all part of the removable K member assembly, it's not a brace

3. If I had to make a logical guess, and this is indeed a guesss, the Mark VIII brace might be there to keep the weight of the emissions tray mounted to the spare tire well from flexing it going over bumps. It's in a really weird spot for unibody stiffening.

4. God no, you can flex the moonroof tray by hand where it spans the roof, it's sole purpose is to hold the moonroof and nothing more.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Badbird never finished that project from what I recall. Also note the interior panel complete cut out. And I believe that was flux core wire welded.

I'd venture to say you'd be better off with an ARC weld, set at the proper heat and rod size / flux selection, you would basically drag the stick along the seam - it would be just as effective and much faster than attempting to stitch weld or take on the monumental task of fully welding with a wire feed. Thin sheet metal is easy, just turn down the heat and use smaller .025 wire size.

I'm really surprised that after all the work he put into it that he didn't finish it. He was on quite the roll there for ah while. I think he ran into some health issues that put a stop to his work.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

side note, would there be any merit in adding the sunroof structure to a non sunroof car to aid in rigidity?? Dumb idea but just curious. Would these attempts be in vain?


View attachment 3291

No. No benefit. Don't waste your time.

 

[dDUBb]

I'm really surprised that after all the work he put into it that he didn't finish it. He was on quite the roll there for ah while. I think he ran into some health issues that put a stop to his work.

I thought he got injured at work. Either way, health problems will shelf a project real quick.

 

[Chingon1]

@XR7-4.6 haha you caught me

On the S197 I was referring to the kmember itself I have a better picture of what I mean, and you’re right the lower control arms ties to the K at the rear. It seems the K extends to the torque boxes.




As far as the b Pilar braces I’ve seen on 240sx forums that the Silvia’s has additionally braces from the factory particularly B Pilar, trunk brace and an additional brace on the roof





I actually have one I removed last year of a 96mk8 and the emissions stuff was bolted just in front of it, the actual part is bolted on both sides of the frame rails and 2 bolts towards the center of the trunk. It’s a thin gauge so idk if it’ll even do anything since like you said that’s a weird spot. To instal on our cars I have to drill the holes and bolt it with all 4 holes. This, the rear x brace and the additional welding on the strut tower lead me to believe the marks were a bit tighter??

@Trunk Monkey yea just a random thought since I thought the moon roof removes one of the roof braces and maybe the whole assembly added some support. In other words, are the moonroof cars a lil less stiff than non-moonroof cars?


@dDUBb I think he did it a bit wrong also, I’ve rear you should only do stitch welding because the continuous seam when it cracks, will just continue the whole way.
Thanks for the tip! I have a flux harbor freight welder and not confident enough to even do 1 weld on the bird. In my head the cheapest ones to do are the door siles, not sure what it’s technically called, the part where the weather seal bites on to. Then the pinch welds running the length of the car.

 

[Chingon1]

Also also this, could be snake oil but something I WOULD try and weld myself. I’ve actually done a lot of reading on other forums across a lot of cars and I’d say most people who put them on have nothing but good things to say. There was also people who said they felt zero difference, others only felt it at higher speeds. It’s mainly Asian brands who have these.

For reference here’s a picture of a mid 2000’s bmw 3 series cowl area and it looks like it has that design from the factory, triangulating the lower part of the door to the upper frame rail near the shock tower. I could be wrong but I think this designs helps with the load the springs present to the frame rail up front.





Here’s a 04 wax sti with the factory brace right behind the aftermarket one.



I bring these subjects up for discussion, not an engineer but I do know angles, load paths and placement have alot to do when bracing something together.

I appreciate your guys responses thanks!

 

[XR7-4.6]

Silvia’s we’re transitional cars, had the MN12 chassis lasted beyond 98 they likely would have gotten that B pillar brace to meet the side impact standards that went into effect. Like I said it’s a safety thing first.

Fender braces I firmly believe are snake oil. That portion of this chassis (and many other cars) is strong as-is

 

[1997ThunderbirdLXV6]

Yea it’s my old rag joint

Your  old rag joint looks way better than mine. Which has me a bit worried...

 

[dDUBb]

I have a flux harbor freight welder and not confident enough to even do 1 weld on the bird.

Just pick up a few pieces of sheet metal and practice .. what is your concern ? Flux core makes for an ugly weld; but a weld is a weld.

 

[Chingon1]

@XR7-4.6 makes sense they are for safety first. I’ve noticed a trend of cars getting bigger and bigger to meet those standards.

It kinda make sense to me why the fender brace works. I think the spring is beating the shit out of the tower which is only held on by one side, towards the engine. the frame rail on top is the controlling the spring load, like when a tire hits a bump that spring is extremely compressed and putting a lot of upwards pressure on the tower, wouldn’t the fender brace in that case aid the frame rail by tying it to the door bolt holes? I know I know beating a dead horse but you always give such dope ass explanations haha

@1997ThunderbirdLXV6 you should it’s an easy swap to do and the joint is less than 100$ I believe. This is the one I used.


@dDUBb i don’t wanna burn holes through the sheet metal haha what gauge do you recommend? I’ve tried 1/8 tube and it’s a lot easier than thin stuff. Would be cool to be able to weld a section at a time, like removing the carpet one weekend and stitch weld the whole floor, then the rear seat area, then the engine bay, front wheel well areas. Have you ever seen this done?

 

[dDUBb]

@dDUBb i don’t wanna burn holes through the sheet metal haha what gauge do you recommend? I’ve tried 1/8 tube and it’s a lot easier than thin stuff. Would be cool to be able to weld a section at a time, like removing the carpet one weekend and stitch weld the whole floor, then the rear seat area, then the engine bay, front wheel well areas. Have you ever seen this done?

Might be a good idea to pick up a gauge thickness index. You'll find varying thickness depending on where the metal is located - I'd say that most of the body structural metal is somewhere between 16 - 14 ga. Your machine should have a chart that will correspond to the recommended Amp range and when you get your wire speed set, you can adjust your amps depending on how the welds turn out. If you're burning holes, the wire thickness used may require too much heat - in this case, you'd want to use a smaller wire ( .025 instead of .030 ) .. or lay down multiple tacks in a row with a little cool down between .. this won't be nearly as clean as a stitch weld, you'll get all sorts of spatter and inclusions, but it shouldn't burn through. Your best bet is to start with smaller wire if you plan on mostly thin gauge metals - without a shielding gas, your welds will never be as good as they could be. Have I ever seen a fully stitch welded chassis ?? No. I remember Fors would sell a race prepped Mustang bare chassis ( No VIN ) that was fully seam welded for about $5k at one point in time.

 

[dDUBb]

It kinda make sense to me why the fender brace works. I think the spring is beating the shit out of the tower which is only held on by one side, towards the engine. the frame rail on top is the controlling the spring load, like when a tire hits a bump that spring is extremely compressed and putting a lot of upwards pressure on the tower, wouldn’t the fender brace in that case aid the frame rail by tying it to the door bolt holes

What you'll tend to find is that the spot welds break where the upper shock mount is attached to the fender apron. The Mark has an extra stitch weld in this area just in case the front air springs fail and bottom out completely. A fender brace won't make any difference.